Dr. Frank Wilderson was back with The Killer Bs (Drs. Jared Ball, Todd Steven Burroughs and Hate) recently to discuss police violence within the context of anti-Blackness.  We discussed the on-going crisis of police brutality and particularly how that persistent violence explains a larger and permanent “social death” imposed on Black people in the U.S. and around the world.  Wilderson also made strong and challenging points about how this anti-Blackness disturbs attempts at solidarity with others most often associated with allied struggles for civil and human rights.


  1. An extremely profound and complex discussion. I have listened to it several times and won’t try to converse about each topic of importance to me here. I found insight in Dr. Wilderson’s comments that we may not be able to articulate or there is no political framework to explain this social death rather that framework is Marxism or post colonial theory. Mainly I wanted to fact check Dr. Wilderson, when he speaks of Marx writing in the first volume of Capital about the “slave as a speaking implement”. If Marx said this then I think the context of such a statement would be that the slave is a revolutionary force in the stage of feudalism, whereas the proletariat is the revolutionary force of socialism. It has to be understood how Marx divided human development into stages. I have volume one of Capital and searched for the quote about the slave as a speaking implement. The version of Capital which I have is published by Progress Publishers (1978) Translated by Sam Moore and Edward Aveling edited by F. Engels. I could not find the speaking implement comment in that volume. When I Goggled the speaking implement it came back in a version of Capital vol. 1. by Penquin Classics (1992) Translator Ben Fowkes with introduction by E. Mandel. The speaking implement did not exist in the text of chapter one but did exit in Marx’s notes in the Penquin version. “the slave was the “speaking implement”. the animal semi mute, implement and the plough the mute implement, ” (Varro, Rerum Rusticarum, Libra Tres, I, 17) A comparison on both version showed the paragraphs before and after were identical translations only the above sentence differed. I find Dr. Wilderson’s assertions valid I still need the difference in these two versions explained.

    1. Daniel! Thank you for this thoughtful response. I, for one, am on it. This is fascinating. Memory (dangerous!) tells me I read Marx saying something similar but I’ll have to dig out my version and/or find where else I am thinking of. But, thanks! More soon!

  2. I am familiar with the Tulia Texas judicial targeting of the Black residents. The DVD cuts scenes which
    a group which after watching it were not aware that the arrest were overturned. I had to discover it by looking
    not only at the DVD but at the scenes on YouTube. The arrest were of black residents who did not own cars, and the case being made was in a town of 500 black people and 500 white people you had 30 Black drug dealers who could support themselves by selling felony weight cocaine. Additionally a high percentage of those arrested did not even own an automobile. One sister arrested proved in court that she was in a bank 250 miles away at the time the contract detective said he purchased the drugs from her. One brother who if I remember correctly had never been arrested, and never had a parking ticket and was sentenced to 60 years. Gov Perry had to pardon most of those sentenced.

  3. And one day the lion shall lay down with the lamb… A religious notion like many vials of dope being shot into the veins of a corpse, a fruitless effort that denies reality.

  4. Until the three major gutter religions (or any for that matter) can teach their black parishioners to metaphysically stop bullets instead of catching them with their teeth and grey matter I don’t see the value in imaginary frienemy gods or religions. All spooky soothesaying of inevitability or destiny of oppression is a prescribed gesticulation of slaveness a possession of ideas and attitudes internalized (similar to the book title “Die Nigger Die”)

    1. Until any religion or any other ‘ism’ IE: capitalism, socialism, communism, Darwinism, atheism, etc… get folks of all ethnic back-ground to stop killing each other, & even making weapons or death & destruction, we should critique those ‘isms’- that so often come to us thru a Euro-centric lens.

  5. As usual, masterful conversation between the four Bs: Ball, Bourroughs, Bolden, and Frank B (Frank B Wild, if you’re nasty)!

    The only problem I can note from the multiple discussion you all have had so far so that Dr. Wilderson seems to place himself into Ivan van Sertima’s contemptuous “500 year box” of history. I’ll chalk it up perhaps to Wilderson’s lack of knowledge of ancient Black history, but without a real deep discursion into our ancient past, we will not have the whole picture of the true nature of this anti-Black antagonistic world that we live in.

    It is interesting how Wilderson could mention how we as Blacks must “destroy the world” so many times, but never actually mention any religious conceptual frameworks of race. The type of existence he talks about mirrors extremely the various religions of the world (with the Abrahamic faiths with their curse of Canaan, the Hinduism with their varna system, and other religions in general with their ‘Light versus Darkness’ motif). BLACK is the default evil of all non-African religion. The religions that Black people follow so dearly have them cursed to be the servants of their ‘brothers’. On the otherhand, Black religions throughout the world use BLACKness as a defining element of their understanding of the world (Osiris as the Lord of the Perfect Black, Krishna’s name means Black One, Kali’s name means Black One, Shiva is also called MahaKala or the Great Black One (even though people think Shiva is white), Zues was called an Ethiopian as well as slew of other Greek gods, and much more). In white cosmology, Black is the color of death while in Black cosmology, white is the color of death.

    What am I saying? There seems to be a metaphysical and occult basis of anti-Black antagonism. Of course, as Western scholars and perhaps materialists, one may have to shy away from these sorts of topics. But when you say things like the “world must end” before Blacks can have true peace –where else have we heard this spoken? Every religion has an Armageddon, a Revelation, a Reckoning, a Day of Judgement, a Ragnorok, a Return of Christ. A DAY WHEN THE DEAD SHALL RISE (hint hint). Every CHRIST figure has been BLACK. Could there even possibly be any correlation to Black people’s consistent religiosity to their current plight? Are we a chosen people (chosen for bondage, chosen for genius)? Pineal gland calcification rate would suggest so.

    I personally do not hold much weight in any religion, but as a student of all things, sometimes there are too many coincidences. I try to give my ancestors the benefit of the doubt. I try to live by the rule that my ancestors were not stupid and that they were not delusional, and that they were not lying, and that they MAY even KNOW something that I do not. But this was just a long rant for what its worth.

    Is Frank Wilderson talking about a human condition or fate? I don’t know, but I know that I love the guy.

    Hate Harder!

  6. Can we get a discussion on internationalism or Afrikan internationalism? As Afrikans our battlefield is Afrika , not the united states. Afrikans shouldn’t be looking for allies in amerika.The Castro brothers and Che Guevara practiced internationalism in Afrika for decades. Professor Piero Gleijeses , in his two volume work on the Cuban intervention in Afrika sheds light on this neglected aspect of our recent history. Two weeks ago, the Cubans sent a 200 member medical team to Afrika to tackle the biological ebola warfare that’s being waged agiainst us. Cuba is our home away from Afrika. The imperialists (including the Chinese ) realize the strategic importance of Afrika, while we talk about allies in amerika.

  7. RE: The ‘NOT So Secret Relations between Black & [Caucasian] Arabs’ [spinning from Min Farrakhan’s book ‘The Secret Relations between Blacks & Jews’]: First of all: Who were / are the original Arabs- were they Caucasians [similarly w the original Hebrews]?. IMO NO they were NOT! They originally were Afro-Asiatic people. So where did the folks we now think of Arabs come from- IMO from the 620+ yr reign [circa 1300 immediately after the Crusades up to the 1920s] of the Ottoman Turks over the Levant, Mesopotamia, Arabia & N.AFRICA. Thus the Arab slave trade was mainly an internal trade within these Ottoman Turk controlled regions. After the fall of the Ottoman Empire / Caliphate, Anglo-American geo-political strategists started calling these regions by the nebulous term ‘Mid-East’ [now stretches from all of Saharan region of Africa all the way to Iran & now even Af-Pak].
    This recent FUK-US NATO war on Libya exposed how certain hard-core Arab elements [even within Africa] hates Africans & Black Libyans too. At-least one main Al-CIAeda linked NTC militia group that ethnically cleansed the Black Libyan town of Twerga was called the ‘Brigade to Eliminate Black-Skinned Slaves’! That racist NTC Lynch mob was allowed to lynch, abuse & persecute African migrants & along w Black Libyans w near impunity! Whle OBomber, Sue Rice, Killary [I Came, I Saw, He Died Ha, ha, ha] Clinton- & even DN! [& also TRNN] went deaf, dumb & blind on this issue!

    While DN! Was hyping the so-called ‘unity of struggle’ between Gaza & Ferguson, I noticed that most of Ferguson’s merchant class were Arabs. This theme has been repeated NOT just in Black communities across the US, but also in Africa. Arabs have replaced Jewish merchants vis-a-vis Blacks in the US, while Aras merchants have a 100+ history of ‘pimping’ Africa for Big Buck$$$- while dissing Africans in the process in their own lands [like many Arab merchants diss US Blacks on our turf]. Arab merchants both in the US & Africa have NO qualms w selling our people shit-loads of pork & alcohol- even though they’re strictly forbidden by Islamic dietary law. Maybe they think it’s A-OK cause most US Blacks aren’t Muslims – IMO it’s really a case of the Profit$$$ principle superseding The ‘Prophet’s [PBUH]’ Principles! And let’s not forget that many Arab men have NO qualms w messing over the sisters [both in the US & Africa]- yet one is hard pressed to even see young Arab women in Arab run stores in Black areas- whether in the US or Africa.

    RE: the Gaza Issue: IMO an issue that seldom discussed [besides the really dumb ‘shoot yourself in the foot’ tactics KHamas uses] let alone analyzed- is that the Israeli blockade of Gaza is only effective because of Egypt’s duplicity. Egypt won’t even open the Gaza / Sinai border crossing when the IDF bombards Gaza. Then there’s Abbass’ PA duplicity w the Likudniks vis-à-vis KHamas & Gaza. And let’s not forget that Jordan’s King Hussein cut a secret deal w Israel immediately after the 1967 6-Day War- which explains why he refused to join the 1973 Yom Kippur War [even though the IDF was on the ropes hanging on for dear-life]. And old man Hussein unleashed a ruthlessly bloody onslaught against the PLO [= Palestinians] in Jordan circa 1970.

    1. From WEB>Dubois’ ‘The World & Africa’ pgs 182 & 183 -} The ancient Arabs [IE: pre Crusades] of the Omayyad Caliphate called themselves swarthy in contrast to their ‘ruddy’ Persian & Turkish subjects…Mohammed came from the Arabian desert around Mecca [& Medina] which is that part of the world that the ancient Greeks [IE: Herodotus] called Ethiopia & regarded as part of African Ethiopia. Arabia must from have the earliest times have had a large population of Negroids. {

      Also note what Duvois says about the ancient Elamites [Susian Perians] of Susa on pgs 181 & 182

  8. This program is worth a pledge of support four of the most courageous and compassionate minds in media.

  9. IMO the biggest beef w white Marxist-Leninists [& even ‘liberals’] is they generally try to spin our issues re: class vs race fit their own agenda(s) [IMO also related to their evangelizing atheism]. For the Marxist-Leninist class always trumps race, so the only legit analysis to Black exploitation & oppression is a class analysis.
    One example of this is an article by socialist web-site WSWS re: the execution of Mike Brown by white killer cop Darren Wilson & the Ferguson uprising. The article literally managed to avoid mentioning that the victim Mike Brown was a Black teen, or that his killer cop was white, that Ferguson is 2/3s Black yet its police force is 94% white. The only clue of this was WSWS attack on Rev Al {the ‘snitch’} as a ‘race-pimp’ [that term was NOT explicitly said but IMO definitely implied]. Now of-course Revs Al & Jessie are easy targets from everyone from WSWS to FOX Noise to BAR, but to para-quote Rev ‘Snitch’ [uhm that’s Rev Al]- ‘It ain’t about Rev Al, it’s about Mike Brown & his family, & the people of Ferguson- Duhh!!! WSWS made the ridiculous claim that the only legit analysis Mike Brown’s execution was from a class perspective [yet technically one could argue that both Mike Brown & his white killer cop are in the same working-class].
    White Marxist-Leninists have often had a ‘curious’ track record of ‘pimping’ yet ‘dissing’ the Black freedom struggle, & have definitely been adverse to the idea of Black Nationalism & Pan Africanism. From my research apparently the US’ communist party in the 1920s tried the infiltrate & hi-jack Marcus Garvey’s UNIA, & may have even effectively [though perhaps NOT directly] coordinated w Gay Edgar Hoover re: Garvey’s persecution.
    Bro Kwame’ Toure’ use to tell his white socialist ‘colleagues’ that Marx has NO monopoly on socialism & that Africans [& other indigenous cultures] were practicing forms of socialism long before anyone even heard of Marx. Marx was the main one to expound on socialist ‘theory’ [NOT necessarily practice] in the European context.
    Also what white Marxist-Leninists seldom acknowledge is that Marx was NOT even from a working class back-ground. His family is related to the Rothchilds [yes those Rothchilds- both they & the Marxs were aristocratic German Jews] & Marx’s wife was from a British aristocratic family related to the Churchills [as in Winston]!

    FYI: to WSWS & their Marxist-Leninist ilk- For rank & file Blacks in the N&S.Americas [especially in the US] the issues of race & class are almost inextricably intertwined. I can state at-least 2 examples where class analysis alone can is inadequate to explain certain activities of the white-working class / working-poor vis-à-vis Black folks.
    1} Poor whites are mostly concentrated in the south & rural areas. Yet these areas are also the traditional strong-holds for the KKK & ‘Good Ole boy’ Fox Noise type Repugs & prior to Tricky Dick’s ‘Sothern Strategy’ the strong-hold for Dixie-crats. These racist poly-tricksters have consistently gotten most poor southern rural whites & even many / most urban working-class whites to ultimately ACT AGAINST What’s Ultimately in Their OWN Best Interests by “Playing the ‘Racist-card’ “/ ‘Race-Baiting’!
    – 2 [in fact a prelude to pnt 1} During the pre civil war era- } The fact that barely 30% [or less] of southerners were actually slave-owners, IMO speaks volumes about most southern working class whites’ mentality re: racism vs Black slaves & the influence of the racist southern slave culture. Economically most southerners had little real class interest in fighting the Civil War for Southern aristocrat slave-owners. Most working-class southern whites were foot-soldiers / cannon-fodder in the Civil War, while most affluent southern slave-owners were their officer-commanders. But you can’t fight a war w all generals & NO foot-soldiers- so had southern working-class whites refused to fight- Jefferson Davis, Robert E.Lee & their ilk would most likely been unable to start the civil-war in their failed attempt to secede due to their insistence on expanding slavery into the newly gangstered [from Mexico] SW territories [now the SW quadrant of the US]; rather they would likely have been forced to compromise on this issue. Yet +250,000 to +300,000 mostly dirt-poor white southerners were willing to [& did] die [w far more seriously maimed for life] fighting the Civil War for the Confederacy- effectively in a failed attempt to expand slavery beyond the traditional boundaries of the ‘Old South’- yet barely 1/4 of them even owned slaves.
    IMO white Marist Leninists can NEVER fully explain these 2 persistent facts re: how poor / working-class whites have often been manipulated to act against their own best [class] interests, via race-baiting / ‘Playing the Racist-card’- using class analysis alone. Only if one includes a racial analysis [racist attitudes of so many poor & working class whites & a sense ‘racial solidarity’ w white Elites vs working –class / working poor Blacks] can this even be explained.

    1. PS: It must be noted that the 1995 film ‘Out-break’ [which IMO is likely the first time most ever even heard of Ebola]- talked about the US Military’s Bio-Weapons Prog covertly developing a strain of Ebola as a deadly / effective bio-weapon.

  10. Amazing discussion with Dr. Frank Wilderson, does anyone in this site transcribe these conversations ? This serves as a good point of reference for more academic writing regarding blackness and criminality

  11. The Dr. Wilderson discussions just keep getting better and better. So liberating! On the heels of your discussion with Dr. Brice, can’t help but wonder if our fav Afro-Pessimist is your friend on MSNBC’s “omission list”. LOL.

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